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BackTable / VI / Podcast / Episode #275

E&M Coding Part 2

with Dr. Ryan Trojan

In this episode, host Dr. Ally Baheti interviews interventional radiologist Dr. Ryan Trojan about recent changes to the AMA’s evaluation and management (E&M) coding in the inpatient and outpatient settings.

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E&M Coding Part 2 with Dr. Ryan Trojan on the BackTable VI Podcast)
Ep 275 E&M Coding Part 2 with Dr. Ryan Trojan
00:00 / 01:04

BackTable, LLC (Producer). (2022, December 23). Ep. 275 – E&M Coding Part 2 [Audio podcast]. Retrieved from

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Podcast Contributors

Dr. Ryan Trojan discusses E&M Coding Part 2 on the BackTable 275 Podcast

Dr. Ryan Trojan

Dr. Ryan Trojan as a practicing Interventional Radiologist with Integris Health in Oklahoma City.

Dr. Aparna Baheti discusses E&M Coding Part 2 on the BackTable 275 Podcast

Dr. Aparna Baheti

Dr. Aparna Baheti is a practicing Interventional Radiologist in Tacoma, Washington.

Show Notes

Dr. Trojan reflects on changes in his practice since his first BackTable interview in March 2021. Onboarding a nurse practitioner made a large difference in being able to bill for follow up visits. Dr. Trojan also notes that some complex procedures require prior consultation, while other simple procedures do not. This categorization depends on the practice structure.

Next, we discuss the 2021 changes to outpatient E&M coding, which will also be reflected in 2023 changes to inpatient coding. These changes place more emphasis on time-based billing and allows physicians to bill for telehealth time with patients before / after / during their visit, as opposed to only face-to-face visits. Dr. Trojan relies on time-based billing more than component-based billing, since time spent with the patient reflects the complexities and comorbidities of each patient’s case. His initial appointment codes typically fall in the level 4 or 5 categories, which indicate moderate or high complexity. Follow up codes usually qualify as level 3, which indicates low complexity.

Finally, Dr. Trojan responds to questions from the audience about understanding global periods, billing for diagnostic and interventional service within the same practice, and billing for consults. Overall, he emphasizes the importance of documenting patient encounters and coding to capture revenue and recognize IR contributions to patient care.


Disclaimer: The Materials available on are for informational and educational purposes only and are not a substitute for the professional judgment of a healthcare professional in diagnosing and treating patients. The opinions expressed by participants of the BackTable Podcast belong solely to the participants, and do not necessarily reflect the views of BackTable.

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