BackTable / ENT / Podcast / Transcript #228
Podcast Transcript: Sinus Headaches vs. Migraines: Diagnosis & Treatment
with Dr. Jessica Lee
Sinusitis or migraine? Understanding the difference between rhinogenic and primary headaches could change your treatment algorithm. In this episode of Backtable ENT, Dr. Jessica Lee, an otolaryngologist from Charleston ENT and Allergy, discusses the prevalence and treatment of sinus headaches with hosts Dr. Gopi Shah and Dr. Ashley Agan. You can read the full transcript below and listen to this episode here on BackTable.com.
Table of Contents
(1) Diagnosing Sinus Headaches vs Migraine
(2) Importance of History Taking for Headache Diagnosis
(3) Why Nutrition, Sleep, & Stress Matter in Diagnosing Headaches
(4) When Headaches Persist After Sinus Treatment
(5) Supplements for Chronic Headache Relief: Magnesium, Riboflavin, & Other Helpful Nutrients
(6) Medical Management for Headaches
(7) Botox for Migraine & Sinus Headaches
(8) Practical Tips for Managing Headache Triggers From Sleep to Diet
(9) Impact of Mycotoxins on the Sinus
(10) Non-Pharmacologic Approaches to Sinus & Migraine Headaches
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[Dr. Gopi Shah]
My name is Gopi Shah. I'm a pediatric ENT, and I have my co-host, life wife, partner in crime, Dr. Ashley Agan. How are you, Ash?
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Hey, good morning, Gopi. I'm doing so good. How are you?
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Excited to be here and excited for our guest and the topic today.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
I know. Me, too. I'm so pumped. We have Dr. Jessica Lee. She is an otolaryngologist practicing at Charleston ENT & Allergy in South Carolina. You may remember her from BackTable ENT Episode 65, Lifestyle Medicine in ENT. Today, she is back. She's going to talk to us today about sinus headache. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Thanks for having me, Ashley and Gopi. I'm excited to be here.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
For listeners who may have missed Episode 65, give us a little background on your practice and the way you approach your patients.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. I'm a comprehensive ENT in Charleston and in an independent practice. Several years ago, I actually went through a board certification for Lifestyle Medicine, and there's stories of how it got me there. Essentially, what I started to realize is it made sense for me to start learning more about how to talk to my patients about things like nutrition and physical activity and sleep quality and stress management, and avoidance of toxins. It was really eye-opening because in my learning, I was very excited to talk about it. The more I talked about it, the more patients wanted to hear.
It's just interesting how many ENT things that we see have so much applicability when it comes to tweaking those everyday habits.
(1) Diagnosing Sinus Headaches vs Migraine
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Diving into the topic of sinus headache. Let's just set the stage because I think we all, as ENTs, this is such a common thing that comes in, whether people are describing it as sinus headache or just sinus. Some people just have-
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
No pressure.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
-sinus or they're pointing. What is that, and how do you think about it?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I think that's an important point to start with, that this is what patients tell us, right? They come in and they say, "I have sinus headache or I have sinus or sinus issues." When you start to question them further, a lot of times it is going to include some type of symptom of pain or pressure in the face, typically, but I have had people tell me I have sinus issues, and they'll point to their temple or the back of their neck. I can sometimes gently say, "Well, there really aren't sinuses there." Anyway, point being, it's some type of facial or head pain or pressure.
Usually, they're going to also use the word congestion, which I find to be one of the least helpful words in our vocabulary because it means so many different things for so many different people. Again, I usually end up questioning further, "Is that airflow problems in your nose when you breathe in? Is it airflow problems when you breathe out? Is it pressure? Is it heaviness? Is it fogginess?" You have to dig through what that actually means because it's different. Essentially, I like to talk to patients about sinus headaches because what I began to notice is how often that symptom is misdiagnosed as a sinus infection.
We have to be very careful, I think, in our field because people are going to come to us for this. If we're not, honestly, the experts at teasing this out, then that misdiagnosis cycle is going to continue. If you really want to be technical about the terms, there's rhinogenic headache, which is a headache that we attribute to a true acute sinusitis or a chronic sinusitis or sinusitis with polyps. Then there's non-rhinogenic headache, which is really more in that primary headache bucket, which includes things like tension headache and migraine disorder and things like that. That's where that it all starts.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
The sinus headache, is it its own entity, or are we just talking about a symptom of sinusitis?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I actually think it's a symptom, correct. Actually, there is not an ICD-10 code for sinus headache, right? That's the other confusing part is when you're starting to try to think, "Well, how can we study this?" You're going to have to use the migraine codes, the atypical facial pain, tension headache. Honestly, the term sinus headache, they group it under-- I think it's one of the J32 codes of chronic sinusitis, but in actual fact, there's a review that says 80% of sinus headache complaints actually meet criteria for migraine disorder.
I don't think it's, "Well, we don't have a great code for it. We don't have a good way to talk about it. We don't have a way to code for it." It makes it, I think, hard for us to start teasing it apart completely, I don't know, at the big level, right?
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Yes. I would say, when I have patients that come in specifically with that as the main, that's the chief thing that's bothering them, it is more likely for the exam to be unimpressive. If I actually see polyps or pus or some sort of sinus pathology, I'm surprised and like, "Oh, yes. You do have a sinus infection or whatnot." I would say, most commonly, there is not an obvious sinus pathology. I think as ENTs, we are trained really well to treat sinus pathology. If we see polyps, if we see pus, I think we're really good at that. I think these patients can be really tricky because a lot of times, they might have an exam that is not super remarkable. I don't know. What is your experience?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Again, I like to use real-world data. Again, there was a review, and it said that 50% of patients diagnosed with sinus infection actually have completely normal endoscopy and CT scans. It's a problem of misdiagnosis mostly, but you're right. We are trained as people who know sinus pathology. What do you do when that patient walks in and they're telling you, and they're usually going to say, "I've got sinus headaches. I've got congestion. Yes, maybe I have a little post-nasal drip." Then you're ticking off those criteria for ARS and CRS and you're thinking, "Well, it could be." Then you do their CT or you do their endoscopy, and it's nothing.
The question is, what do you do next? I think there's a tendency, maybe, with some of the training that, "We're done. We're out. It's not us. It's a headache issue." The problem is there's only, I think, 700 headache specialists in the US versus there's 10,000 ENTs. Again, when patients start saying the word sinus, congestion, headache, whatever they want to add to the word after it, they're going to be referred to us. I think there's a gap in our training, but also in our comfort level and working with these patients. I think that can change.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Do a lot of these patients, I feel like they also have allergies, too. How often is it not a sinus issue, but it's a symptom of allergies? Because I see a lot of that as well, where it's boggy turbinate, clear rhinorrhea, and then the pressure. It's not quite sinusitis, but they have the headache, and it's that allergy season. Is it different?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
No, I think it can be both. That's the other hard part, is you can have patients who are having headache symptoms, and you happen to allergy test them or scan them, and they come back positive. Then again, what do you do? What do you treat first? I think most ENTs would agree, we're going to go with what's abnormal, right? You're going to treat their allergies or you're going to treat their sinusitis, but then what if they still have headaches? One of the most clear examples of this I had a few years ago was a young woman. She was about 31 years old.
She had been years of symptomatic or she had symptoms for years, and she had been through allergy testing and immunotherapy, completed her five years, and didn't really get that much better. Then she had sinus surgery, although we'll talk about her CT being normal, actually, but she did have sinus surgery, didn't really change her symptoms. Finally, by the time she came to me, she said, "The place I go has recommended I do allergy immunotherapy a second time. I was like, "Hang on, let's just pause for a minute." We went through and we dissected it out. For her, it was absolutely migraine.
She just continued to go to urgent care or primary care and be prescribed antibiotics and steroids, and things would get better temporarily, because migraines do get better. Really, it can be difficult because you have patients that have not just one problem. Our bodies don't read the textbooks, and so it's not always clear-cut, so you have to detect a bit.
(2) Importance of History Taking for Headache Diagnosis
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Yes, I think that whole response to treatment, I think, does muddy the water because a lot of things will respond to prednisone. It's a very powerful anti-inflammatory, so when people say, "Oh, yes. I felt better for a little while." Even antibiotics can have anti-inflammatory effects, and so that can certainly make it confusing. Obviously, patients are coming in, and you mentioned a lot of the symptoms that they will present with. When you're taking your history, what are some things that you've started asking about that maybe you didn't ask 10 years ago that help with figuring out the etiology of this?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes, that's a great point because, like you said, you're going to get from your medical assistant or whoever's helping with your HPI, you're going to get the information typically about where the pressure and pain is, what it feels like. You're going to get the nasal symptoms, whether it's airflow obstruction or mucus or purulent drainage, and the loss of sense of smell, which is those four core components we always think to ask about, but I've started asking more about dizziness. Are they having dizziness when they're symptomatic? Do they have ear fullness? They'll often say, "Oh, yes. I go to urgent care, and I get diagnosed with an ear infection and a sinus infection, and I get put on my antibiotics."
I'm like, "Okay, we're going to double-check that. I ask about nausea and vomiting. I ask about sensory phobia. I say, "When you feel like this, do you feel like sounds are louder or more uncomfortable, or do you feel like you don't want to be around bright light as much, or smells, can you not tolerate certain smells?" I ask them about tinnitus. Do they have tinnitus during that time? Do weather changes stimulate it? That's back to, Gopi, what you asked about with allergies, is a lot of people assume, "Oh, will the weather change?"
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
I know when the weather's changing, because I'm that patient. I get the headaches, and sure enough, six hours later, there's clouds or something brewing. I'm like, "Okay."
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
It's that barometric pressure change, which we know is part of migraine pathology, and it can be part of allergy pathology, but which one is it? Hormones, for women especially, asking about, does this have any relationship to their menstrual cycle? That's a big clue. That's the list of things I've added to the HPI questions.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
With those questions, I think of nausea, vomiting, sensory, that's my migraine bucket. I think of ear fullness, congestion with my sinus bucket. With dizziness, could it be vestibular migraine? My guess, if it has some sinus component, maybe that's still my sinus bucket. Tell me, how do you use some-- Do you get nausea, vomiting with your sinus headache, or is that no?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. I think that's probably one that people don't get as much. Maybe a little nausea, maybe a little queasy, or maybe they just don't have an appetite, but they're typically not coming in saying, "I have a headache and I vomit and I'm sensitive to light," because if they say that, they go to neurology for migraine. It's more subtle. I think, for me, the ear fullness, the dizziness, the tinnitus questions bring in the vestibular migraine potential, which again is still a migraine diagnosis. Then, like I said, I think the sinusitis piece of it is what generally happens is if this is someone who's having recurrent acute episodes, what I will tell them, because by the time they come in, they're not in an episode anymore.
Very likely, their endoscopy does look normal. What I will tell them when they come in is, "The next time you get sick, I want to be the one to see you. I don't want you to go to urgent care. I don't want you to even go to your primary care. They do a great job, but I do this, and I want you to come see me." I'm lucky that I work in a practice where we are very accessible the way the practice is set up. I'll also give them my work email, and be like, "Look, if you call and you can't make it in, just email me and I will book you, because I want to see you when you are symptomatic. I want to see, is there pus dripping out of a sinus? Is there really fluid behind your eardrum."
In some cases, I'll even go as far as to say, "Next time you come in and you feel this symptom, I'm going to do a CT scan and we're going to see what it shows." I find that feedback for patients is extremely helpful, because unfortunately, you bring up the word migraine, there's a stigma. People shut down. They don't want to be diagnosed with migraine. A lot of people, it's hard to convince them that these sinus headache episodes are actually not infections. Sometimes, having that feedback where I can go over their CT scan with them is extremely helpful.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
I'm so glad that you also have a hard time convincing people that it's migraine, because I have the same experience where we have good data to back up. Can you tell patients, "Actually, a lot of sinus headaches are migraine. Look, your sinuses are clear." You're right. People don't want to have migraine, or they're like, "No, I'm not a migraine patient. That's not me." I'm glad to hear that even you have this issue. In thinking about your differential, these sinus headache patients, where it's, what did you call it? Non-rhinogenic?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. Non-rhinogenic headache, yes.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Right. There's not an acute sinusitis. Is the most common diagnosis migraine? Are there other things on your differential that you're thinking about?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. Certainly, you have your warning signs. If you have someone who has new-onset headaches, especially if they're older. If they're having any other systemic symptoms, if they're having vision changes, you don't want to forget that headache differential and just automatically assume it's migraine. Again, I would say the vast majority of the time, that's not really on the radar. I would say, I think I did have a patient a couple weeks ago who was having vision changes with new-onset and progressively worsening headaches. I was like, "Okay. You were going to get an MRI because we need to take a closer look before we just label this."
I think the differential is still, if someone comes in, their primary complaint is sinus headache, I still think your differential will include acute sinusitis, chronic rhinosinusitis, migraine, tension headache. Then you've got some other things. You've got the more rare or less common things like cluster headache and things like that. Again, I'm not a neurologist. I'm not claiming to be a headache specialist, but I think that these types of headaches present in our clinics much more commonly than in other specialty clinics. Again, I think it's a place where we don't get the training, and I think that it's a place where we can do better for our patients.
(3) Why Nutrition, Sleep, & Stress Matter in Diagnosing Headaches
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Let's say you have that patient who is able to see you in clinic, the symptoms of headache and congestion, some ear fullness started, you see them in clinic, what do you do? What is that visit like? Tell me what sometimes you'll see in these patients and your findings.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Like Ashley said earlier, I think, honestly, most of the time their scope is normal if it's a migraine patient. Now, you're right. Sometimes, you're going to get the overlap. Maybe they have allergies as well, and you'll see some buggy turbinates or a little bit of clear mucus in the nasal cavities. If you see purulence, you're obviously going to treat it along the guidelines for acute or chronic sinusitis, but let's assume in this case that this is a normal endoscopy. Then, at that point, like I said, if it's recurrent acute, I'll usually say, "Okay, let's think about the possibility."
I sometimes won't even use the word migraine. I'll say, "What if this could be like a nerve hypersensitivity," which is migraine. I'll explain how the trigeminal nerve gives them sensation in their face and in their sinuses, and how you can have autonomic symptoms. You can have runny nose and congestion because of the parasympathetics in that area. I give them a little brief, like, "Hey, this is how your nerves in your face work." I say, "Let's think about what makes nerves hypersensitive, and it's anything that impacts your brain health. That's your sleep. That's your nutrition. That's your stress levels. That's your hormones, all those things."
From there, I usually will try to have a little conversation about their daily habits. I'll give you another example. This is a young man in clinic a couple of weeks ago, and he, again, had been treated for recurrent sinus infections all coming up in the past couple of years, but when he told me about where his headaches are, he kept pointing to his temple. I was like, "Okay." His scope was normal and everything. I said, "Let's just talk about some of these other things like we just listed." It turns out, for him, he fasts all day long.
I was asking about his normal routine of eating because a lot of times, too, with migraine, I'll tell people, 'It's not as much what you eat. There are certainly foods that are known to be triggers, and it can be different for everybody." A lot of it is the pattern and how long you go in between and those periods of hypoglycemia. For him, he was like, 'Oh, I rush out the door in the morning to get to my job. I sit at my desk all day long. I don't take a break for lunch. I basically eat dinner, and that's it." I was like, "Okay, we're going to think about getting you on a more stable nutrition plan."
Also talked about like that constant screen time with no break and that constant visual stimulation and taking a break every hour, get up, go walk around, go step outside for two minutes or something. He came back in and is already feeling better just from tweaking a couple of things like that.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
When you talk about hypoglycemia, that makes me think about a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor. Are you using those in your practice at all to help patients have more insight into what might be happening, how they can track their symptoms with how their glucose is tracking? Do you have any thoughts on that?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I'll tell you, I've done a CGM just for curiosity's sake. It's not hard to do, and you can gain some really interesting insights. What I will say is, number one, for most people, it's going to be an out-of-pocket expense. It's not going to be covered by insurance unless they have diabetes. In my experience, you don't even need that. You can tell just by asking a few questions about what time do they normally eat breakfast? What time do they normally eat lunch? What time do they normally eat dinner?
Right away, you're going to get an idea of is this someone who-- or you'll have a patient who comes in and says, "Oh, I started intermittent fasting, and now I'm having these headaches." I haven't found that I needed to use it clinically. I do have some patients who I work really in-depth with from this integrative standpoint. We have kept it in the sides as like a, "Hey, if we feel like we're struggling and we really want to get further insight, we can use this." Honestly, none of them have needed it.
(4) When Headaches Persist After Sinus Treatment
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Going back to the patient. Let's say that you do find something on your scope exam, and let's say you treat them. Let's say they do rinses. For those patients who do sinus rinses, they follow back up with you, and maybe the ear fullness is gone, the congestion's gone, but they still have headache, is it still sinogenic headache or not? If not, then is that when you start to think about some of these other lifestyle modifications that might help this headache that may have a non-rhino, sinogenic source?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I guess if we make the assumption that there was a little bit of purulence on your exam and it was an acute onset, and maybe it's been going on for three weeks, so they had double worsening or something. We're like, "Okay, we're going to do some antibiotics, put you on some rinses, nasal steroid. Come back and see me in a month." Sometimes, again, if it's a first-time episode, I'm not necessarily going to be in a rush to scan them. If it's something like this has been a pattern, then a lot of times, I'll have them follow up with the CT.
Now, let's say the CT does show a little bit of mild mucosal thickening at the base of the maxillary, but the OMC unit is open, and they're telling me they have all this pressure in their forehead, but they have maxillary thickening, I'm not really seeing the connection there. This is real-life scenarios, because I have this patient. He's actually a teenager. He came in late last year. He had a really bad viral illness, turned into a bacterial sinus infection, went through antibiotics, has horrible headaches on a daily basis. There's certainly more to the story that I won't go into, but we scanned him back then, and he had certainly chronic mucosal disease. Chronic mucosal thickening in all of his sinuses.
I was like, "If we can't get ahead of this, then surgery might be something we have to talk about in the future." He wanted to wait until after school was out, so he follow up recently. Everything had gotten better except the headache. His congestion was better. I scoped him, the mucosa looked healthy, but he still had this headache here. His frontal sinuses were the only thing that were normal on his previous CT scan. I was like, "Let's just scan again. I want to see what's changed. Has it gotten worse? Has it gotten better?" His sinus CT is now completely clear, and he still has headache.
That's a patient that technically would have been someone that I was considering operating on, who the headaches were really unrelated. It's not an easy answer to give you, but it's complicated. It's nuanced. You have to talk to the patients and figure out like, "Does this make sense with your symptoms? Is it matching?" We all know that there are studies that show that the Lund-Mackay scores on CT scans don't always correlate to symptoms. We know that people who are completely asymptomatic have abnormalities on their CT scans. I think it's very case by case.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
For the CTs, I think we've all had the patient where they have a mucocele and they say, "I have pain right here," and it happens to be where that mucocele is. In my training, we were taught that that's a coincidence and that that's not related, but I would love to hear your thoughts.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes, I was trained the same way. That mucoceles are asymptomatic. Period. End of sentence. I disagree. I think being in practice and, again, being cautious, not that I'm going to go operate on every mucocele that walks in the door, but if I have a patient and they have isolated pain and we have a sinus abnormality that matches that location and we've ruled out, in this instance, a dental issue, then I will operate. Again, I can list-- Of the patients that I took that approach with, they are better, and they are better very quickly. Those cases, a lot of times, those mucoceles are pyo mucoceles. They're infected, and draining it is really helpful.
The other type I've seen is that when they're just so big, I think there is potentially a little bit of local pressure. Again, those patients, maybe they already are prone to hypersensitivity from the nerve aspect, and it's triggering it, and we drain the mucosal and it goes away. Maybe that's it. I've seen success in patients who, when you can match it like that, I think it's worth offering that as an option.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
The patient who had persistent headache, the sinus is clear, what your threshold to then refer to neurology, or when does the other lifestyle factors, is that when you go into that history a little bit more? What do you do now?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes, I go back to that. In his case, we had already touched on some lifestyle things, but again, he is a teenager, and there's only so much you can tweak. Sometimes, I have to tell some teenagers, I'm not generalizing. Some teenagers are extremely motivated, but his sleep is not great. He stays up on the computer all night. He doesn't drink a lot of water. There could be other reasons why he's not feeling great. Yes, in those cases, I'll usually circle back and say, "Look, this thing that we thought was causing your symptom is now no longer a thing, and yet your symptom didn't change. What else can we do?"
Then, yes, you're right. In some cases, I will definitely refer to neurology, but something that maybe we'll get into a little bit later is even outside of the lifestyle medicine interventions, there's good evidence for supplements when it comes to migraine. There's lots of medication options if patients are interested in that. You've got things like Botox injections. There's certainly a lot of therapies out there that are options if we feel like we've exhausted all the others.
(5) Supplements for Chronic Headache Relief: Magnesium, Riboflavin, & Other Helpful Nutrients
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Can we talk about some of the supplements that you will recommend for patients?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. The two that have the most research are vitamin B2, which is riboflavin, and magnesium, and there's a thousand varieties of magnesium. Some will say that even your citrate, which is going to be one that doesn't really cross the blood-brain barrier, it stays in the gut, even that can be helpful. I think that's realistic to say because, maybe all, I say all, maybe most of us have heard that there's a gut-brain connection. If we're thinking of this as a brain issue and we improve maybe some gut health issues, then that can also make their symptoms better.
Also, I tend to choose magnesium glycinate for these patients. Magnesium threonate is another version that's very good, but essentially, some version of magnesium and riboflavin are usually the first two I will recommend. Then CoQ10 would be a third that comes right behind it potentially. I try not to overload people. I don't want to be the person that is like, "Here's your 10 supplements. Go start all of them and then come back and see me." I don't like to do that, and so I tell people, "We're going to start with one or two at a time, pause, see how you feel, and then we can move forward if we need to."
There's other evidence for things like omega-3 fatty acid, alpha-lipoic acid, probiotics, again, back to gut health issues. Definitely lots to explore there.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Yes. What's the dosing? Do you know off the top of your head what you dose for the magnesium and the riboflavin?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
The magnesium depends on the type a little bit, but it's somewhere usually between 250 and 500 milligrams a day. Then the riboflavin is 400 milligrams a day. Again, sometimes I'll titrate people up, too. There's not a whole lot of side effect with these. Usually, it's going to be some kind of GI complaint, but I'll have them start 200 of riboflavin once a day. Then we can either bump it up to 400 once a day, or they can do it in divided doses. The magnesium, I'll usually tell them to take before bed, especially if they're taking something like glycinate or threonate, because those do potentially also have some benefits when it comes to sleep.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
How quickly do you tell people that they can expect to maybe see some benefit when they start these?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I usually will say, "Give it a few months." The patients I'm starting these on, these are usually chronic, more chronic symptom patients. This is not someone, who three or four times a year has an episode. I will tell you, I had a woman come in, this was probably a year or two ago, and had been through the wringer, like we talked about at the beginning of the episode. Essentially, I said, "Look, let's just start--" Her lifestyle stuff was pretty in tune. She was pretty like clean eater, went to the gym regularly, felt like she slept pretty well, didn't drink a lot of alcohol, didn't smoke, things like that.
I was like, "Okay. Well, let's just start with some supplements." I was like, "I can't guarantee this is going to fix it by itself, but let's at least get this on board." The woman came back a month later, and she was like, "I have not felt this good in years." Just by adding two little supplements. She was thrilled and I was thrilled. It can happen really fast for some patients, but I certainly usually will say, "It's probably going to take two to three months to feel a difference."
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Do you worry about any toxicities or interactions with other medications? I know you said they were pretty safe, but if they're on anything else, are there any red flags, where you're like, "Ooh, we can't do the--"
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Not for those. They're pretty safe from a side effect and interaction standpoint, yes.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Do you check any labs? I think about vitamin D deficiency is super common. Is that part of this at all?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I will sometimes check labs. Usually, patients have had a basic panel from their PCP in the past year, so we'll gather up that. Sometimes, usually, hopefully, that involves some thyroid testing, so I can check that box, but I do. I think about thyroid hormone. I think about vitamin D. I'll check B12, a serum B12, because, again, from a neuro support standpoint, that's very important. I will also check iron labs, so a ferritin and an iron panel. Like I said, usually, they've already had a CBC. They're usually not clinically anemic, but I definitely have seen a lot of people, especially women, again, who have non-anemia iron deficiency. Replacement can be helpful in those cases.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
How do you like to replace that? Because I feel like iron is hard to take.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Again, back to the lifestyle medicine training, and I will fully admit that this is my bias. If it's me trying to treat something, I, typically, my first question for my doctor is, "What can I change about my daily habits that would prevent me from having to take a pill?" That's the way I approach life, with my family, too. I admit that I have that bias, and I will declare that to patients. Point being, usually with iron, I'm like, "Well, look, what can we adjust in your dietary intake? If you eat meat, let's look at your sources of iron in your diet, and maybe we increase that slightly."
Maybe, for a woman, if it's more like a menstrual connection, maybe just during your menstrual cycle, you could supplement with iron, and then you don't have to do it every day. If that's not possible, let's say I have someone who's a vegetarian, certainly, there are vegetarian sources of iron, beans and greens and things, but I think there is enough to say it's probably not as well absorbed as heme iron from meat, but we have that conversation. If their choice is, "I don't want to eat meat," okay, then let's talk about supplements. You definitely want a supplement that has vitamin C with it because it does help with absorption.
There is a brand of supplement that I tend to use that's a pretty well-regarded brand called Pure Encapsulation, and they have a ferrous sulfate with vitamin C that I, personally, actually, I have been on this train and I have taken it and it didn't have any constipation side effects for me, which is the main issue people complain about. I think that's usually the one I start with if we're going to go that road. I'm not an affiliate. I don't get any kickback from that.
(6) Medical Management for Headaches
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
We talked about supplements. Do you do much medication management? Are you putting patients on amitriptyline or topiramate, or even just triptans to have for acute episodes?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes, perfect, because I would say that, triptans, I've become much more comfortable prescribing, and upfront, you do have to ask about their heart health and talk about concern for arrhythmia and things like that. I always tell them, if you have any symptoms or if they have a history of things, we're not going to do that. Yes, in fact, I will often use triptans as a diagnostic trial. Again, if someone's coming in and having these recurrent episodes and they're going to urgent care and getting an antibiotic, I'm going to say, "Instead of doing that next time, as soon as you feel it coming on, I want you to take this medication."
Then, "The way it works is you take one, and if it is able to halt that progress, if it is able to halt the release of all the mediators like CGRP and substance P and all these things, then your symptoms should immediately start to get better. If after two hours, it hasn't halted that progress, if things are continuing to progressively worsen, you can take a second dose two hours later, but then you don't take any more for the next 24 hours." That's the instructions I give. These are rescue meds, I tell them. This is not someone who has daily symptoms that I'm giving this to.
I tell them that I can only prescribe eight a month because if you're using more than eight a month, then we need to switch and think about something preventative. I love that as a diagnostic test because number one, you're sending them out the door with something that you're telling them, "I believe this is going to help you not feel miserable for 24 or 48 hours when you feel this way," and that's all some people need. Again, some people are getting this a few times a year and they just need that really good rescue med, maybe while they work on some of these other lifestyle things.
As far as things like Elavil, Topamax, things like that, I haven't found that I've needed to get into that too much. I feel comfortable with Elavil because we do a lot with the chronic cough pathways. I feel like a lot of us are comfortable with that one. I do talk about some of the TCAs as an option, typically. Of course, with those, you have to warn them about-- especially, you don't want to use it on older patients. Again, migraine being very commonly a young person problem, that's usually not an issue, but we do talk about dry mouth, feeling a little groggy, things like that. We can always change it if they have that.
Again, you start low, you titrate up. Again, I haven't gotten too far into Topamax or the beta blockers or even gepants and CGRP antibodies. If we are not getting success with everything else we've tried to this point, usually, that's where I have started to refer to neurology. I actually have a colleague, he's not in our practice, but he's at the medical university. He runs like a dizzy clinic, so he does a ton of vestibular migraine. I've asked him. I was like, "What do you do when you get to that point? Are you prescribing gepants, or are you sending those out to neurology?"
He said, he was like, "Sometimes, I will." He's like, "But most of the time, I'm setting them up with neurology at that point." I think that's very reasonable. In fact, I would love if there's any neurologists out here who would love to collaborate, I think it would be great to put minds together and come up with a really good algorithm for people.
(7) Botox for Migraine & Sinus Headaches
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Then who are the patients that you consider Botox for, that you're like, "Okay, we've tried the supplements. You've tried the tryptans, maybe," or is it, "Let's try tryptans or Botox," or who are the Botox patients and how does that work?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I typically present it as an option in the tablescape of options. Some people are comfortable with that thought. Some people just do not want to take a medication every day. That is just the last thing they want to do. Then we bring up things like Botox injections. Again, there's several providers where I work who are really skilled at this, and so I often will send them out. Again, I honestly think if you say you start with a hundred patients that walk in your office with sinus headache, you're going to end up with single digits of people that need to be referred on is what I've seen, at least in the past few years of paying attention to this.
It's just not all that common that people have to go that route. The great news is if they do have to go that route, there are specialists who love to do that and are very skilled at that. It is an option.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Is it within other ENTs doing this, or I always think of neck pain or TMJ, but I don't really know where else people are injecting and what headaches and who and how long it lasts. Do any of that stuff?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. I don't do the injections. I know there's-- he's actually a facial plastic surgeon in town who's really good at it. He does a lot of the corrugators and stuff up here. We do have a provider who will do more for TMJ spasm stuff. He'll do more masticator Botox, but that brings up a good point, too, because a lot of patients have jaw pain as part of their symptomatology. I think we forget that the masticators are innervated by the trigeminal nerve. Again, is it TMJ or is it actually migraine? I think in the neurology world, from some of the things I've read, it seems like a lot of TMJ is probably migraine. You mentioned it could be neck pain. It's another symptom falls--
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
I'm asking for a friend. [laughter] There's so much of this conversation, I'm like--
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I know. When you start paying attention to it, you're like, "Hang on a minute, was my headache last month a headache or was it a migraine?" With neck pain, that's a symptom that falls into-- it could be that you have a tight muscle. It could be that you tweaked your neck at the gym, or it could be a migraine. It could be part of that symptomatology. I am super nerdy about bringing out pictures of the nerve pathways in clinic to just explain why would I tell someone that their ear pain is from their neck? Because you've got C2 and C3 innervation.
Then you say that, and they go, "Oh, well, my neck is super tight on that side." I'm like, "Great. You need a massage, and maybe you need to go see a PT, or we need to do some strengthening. Again, I may not be the one to guide you through that, but there are excellent, skilled professionals in our town who will help, but your ear is normal. It's not an ear infection."
(8) Practical Tips for Managing Headache Triggers From Sleep to Diet
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Going back to a little bit of looking at potential triggers or etiology. What about patients who might have OSA as a potential cause of their poor sleep, which then is leading to some daytime headaches? Are you finding that if you pick that up and then treat that with whether it be oral appliance or CPAP or however you're treating it, will the headache respond to that? Is that a common presentation?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I would say that there's two groupings that I think of from like sleep trigger. You've got your OSA patients who probably have that chronic low-grade daily headache that they wake up with in the morning. That's on a lot of our questionnaires. That is different than migraine. In those patients, if you treat their sleep apnea, then they're going to likely see resolution of that chronic low-grade daily headache. For patients with migraine, if they have sleep apnea, absolutely, we need to treat the sleep apnea for many other reasons. If their sleep quality is part of the reason they're having increased susceptibility to migraine flares, then yes, that should get better.
Again, more often what I see, because again, it's often a young female population that this is really impacting. I had a patient who we've worked through it, and she was drinking-- This was like a year or two ago, when pre-workouts were all the rage, I don't know, the young people these days were drinking caffeine right before they went to the gym because it was all over TikTok, that this gave you a better workout. A lot of people were drinking this dose of caffeine at 4:00 or 5:00 PM after work. She was doing that. As we went through, again, "What's your mealtime like? What do you eat? What do you drink?"
She was like, "Oh, I have this pre-workout before I go work out after work, but before the gym." By the way, her sleep quality sucked. All we did for one of her treatments was pulled out the pre-workout, which means she slept better, which meant all of a sudden, she's having much less susceptibility to migraine. It can be simple little tweaks like that she didn't miss. She was like, "Oh, I don't know. I just started doing it because my friend was doing it." I think the pushback that I hear is we're a surgical specialty. This is not our job.
I push back against that to say, "These patients are coming to our clinics, and their providers are sending them to us. We should be able to have these conversations. If you don't want to take the time to have these conversations, that's fine, but maybe you have a colleague who is okay with doing that." I, for better or worse, enjoy doing this, so my colleagues now send me these patients. They're like, "I think they would benefit from seeing Dr. Lee because they don't want to have this conversation. They don't want to go down that journey." That's fine, but find someone in your group who does.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
What about food sensitivities? Do you get into specific foods that could be triggers, or patients will sometimes ask if they'll see some advertisement for a food sensitivity test that's going to tell them what they can and can't eat? Can you comment on that?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I do not order food sensitivity tests. That is the correct answer. It is true. It's true. I'm teasing. What I will say is this, when it comes to food as triggers, I tell people it's not good or bad. It's not healthy or unhealthy. It is just that some foods have substances in them that might be a trigger for you. It doesn't mean that because it's a trigger for someone else, that it'll trigger you, and that's fine. Foods with tyramine is the chemical we talk about. That's a lot of aged or fermented products. You think about cheeses, you think about processed meats, you think about wine and beer. You think about other fermented foods and things like that. Leftovers. If you reheat leftovers, potentially.
Past that, there's all the like, "Oh, dark chocolate," and things like that. Again, that's the caffeine link more than anything. You do want to think about, is caffeine that trigger for that person? As far as food sensitivity testing to talk about gluten and dairy and soy and corn and nuts and shellfish, again, I don't order it. I haven't found that I've needed to, but I'm going to put this little tack on the wall here that there has been a study, at least one, but there was a study that did IgG testing, which is what we call food sensitivity testing. They did an elimination plan with patients who tested positive for certain things. They found that there was a 30% decrease in migraine attacks in those patients.
Never say never. Maybe we don't understand the connection yet. Maybe food sensitivity testing is not the answer for everyone, but I'm not against if I have someone who is doing everything else right and we can't get where they want to be, and they want to do it, I'm not going to say I would never explore that with a patient.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
If they're like, "Okay." Did you just give them a list of what you just mentioned with tyramine-rich foods and say like, "Okay, these could be triggers. Look at your diet." Are you a fan of elimination diets?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I'm not a fan of elimination diets. I'm a fan of moderating your triggers. Again, the whole idea with migraine disease is it's a threshold disease. Your trigger on one day may not be a trigger on the other day, because it also takes into account how did you sleep? What's your stress level? What's the weather like? What hormone part of your cycle are you in? It's not to say you can't ever have dark chocolate, but if you've been stressed and you're on your period and you haven't slept well for the past two weeks, you might not want to go eat that dark chocolate dessert that night.
It's not about you can't ever have this again, but if you are starting to notice connections and associations, then just start to think about, "Do I take this out of my diet for a few weeks and see if it makes a big difference? Can I modulate when and how much I eat that certain thing?" I think that brings up an important point that I like to tell people. Again, in our modern world, I think this is hard. It's easier said than done, is patients have to listen to their body. We were just joking about summer and how things thankfully tend to slow down a little bit, but then it's a new kind of rush.
If we're in a rush all the time, and we're constantly on the go, and we're multitasking, and we've got 10 things on our mind, you're not going to notice when your body is starting to giving you little warning signals. I always tell people, "If I ask you to keep a diary, it's not because I care about what you eat, and I'm not going to make a judgment." I'm like, "Oh, my god, this person eats X, Y, Z." It's really so that they can start to listen to their body and how their body responds to not even food items, but again, sleep quality, how often they're moving their body, things like that.
(9) Impact of Mycotoxins on the Sinus
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
I can't let you leave without asking you about mycotoxins.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Oh, god. [laughs] No.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Can we just a little bit?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Ashley.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
No?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
We had such a great conversation, and this is how we're going to end this episode?
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Okay, we can edit it out. We can edit it out, but I--
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I'm teasing. I'm teasing. We can keep it.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
It's one of these things that comes up every once in a while. People are like, "It's the mold. I was feeling bad. Then I found out my house is full of mold."
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
You see that in kids as well. Not just adults.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Okay. Again, you can-- [crosstalk]
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Tell us everything. Give us the tea.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I'm going to get roasted for this, but okay. Again, the way my brain works is if I'm going to recommend something to a patient, I want to know what the evidence behind it is first. I'm not someone who's going to hear a podcast and be like, "Oh, that sounds cool. I'm going to start doing that for my patients." No, I will dig. I go down rabbit holes into PubMed and all the things. I told myself I was going to learn about mycotoxins because so many people have this concern. I live in Charleston. It's a very humid environment most of the year. There's a lot of endemic mold in our buildings. Surely, right? I'm thinking, "Surely, it's not mold all the time."
Now, that said, I have done a course all about mold illness and mycotoxins, and there is some credibility to some of the things that are said about mold and mycotoxin illness. I would argue that some of the claims made about how much it impacts sinuses is just less supported by the evidence. There is a specific, we're going to say, "paper" in quotations, because it's really more of a review that was published, I don't know, 20, 25 years ago. This is when you ask for references or you look up the references, this is always the paper cited, but it's a review of a case study of three people about how mold impacts sinuses.
Now, that said, we all know, you guys had a great guest on that talked about allergic fungal sinusitis and all the different chronic and invasive and things. We know fungal sinusitis is a thing, and we also know that patients can be allergic to mold. If they're living in a building with something they're allergic to, they're going to be symptomatic. Absolutely. Mold can give you sinus symptoms and can give you headaches. I don't know at this point that I feel comfortable telling someone that they have to spend a ton of money on a renovation if everything else checks out normal, they have a normal CT scan, and the only thing they're pinning all of this on is mycotoxin.
Here's the other piece of that. When you look at how people treat mycotoxin illness, the vast majority of the upfront intervention is everything we just talked about. It's clean diet, it's good air, good breathing technique, it's good sleep, it's supplementation of nutrients that might be deficient. I think that a lot of patients are getting better because the treatments are very similar in those beginning phases. Again, I'm a, to quote Peter Attia, I'm a strong convictions, loosely held person, where if you show me evidence otherwise, I will change my mind. I have had those patients. I had a woman who felt convinced that it was related to mold illness.
We had we had done the rest of the workups. It wasn't sinusitis. It wasn't the other thing. She really didn't have a history of migraine. She moved out of her apartment, and her congestion and her headaches got better. What do you do with that? You can't tell a patient that their experience is wrong. There's something there. I don't know that we have a perfect grasp on it.
[Dr. Gopi Shah] Yes. That way you think about it, I think, is important, and it adds some clarity, because patients come to us, and it's one of those things where it's good to have an idea of like, "Oh, this is how Jessica thinks about it." It makes sense because then you can at least have that door open to get some of that information from your patient without just completely X-ing it out, but then, "Hey, all of these other lifestyle modifications also can help, too, with that."
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Right. I think what you just made a point about, Gopi, is important because there's already a problem with the distrust of the medical community. I think we would all agree. If we shut down a conversation like that, if a patient comes in and wants to have that conversation, and we immediately go, "Oh, that's garbage. That's not a real thing." Do you think they're going to walk out of that appointment and want to come back to see us and think well of the medical profession? Absolutely not. It may not be something you believe in as a provider, but at least be knowledgeable about it enough to have that conversation and be able to give the reasons why. Same thing with food sensitivity testing. When that was really big five, six years ago, people would come in and ask for it, or they ask for food allergy testing a lot. They'll ask, "Can I just do a food panel?" I'll say, "Let's just talk about why I wouldn't recommend it," but I'll have that conversation of like, "This is why. This is what I think would be better. What do you think?"
I would say, everybody, once you have that conversation, says, "Oh, okay. That makes sense, yes. Let's keep moving forward." I think, as a profession, again, even just to understand these conversations that are happening in other parts of healthcare spheres is important because we need to be someone that our patients are okay opening up to.
(10) Non-Pharmacologic Approaches to Sinus & Migraine Headaches
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Very well said. As we round this out, I would love a few more non-pharmacologic options for patients. If you've got your patient that's checking all their boxes, as far as lifestyle modifications, and they're trying their supplements, and they're like, "What else can I be doing?" I'm thinking things like acupuncture and cold plunge and light therapies and things like that. Do you ever have a list of things that maybe there's less evidence for, but in your practice, you've seen it help, or maybe there is evidence for it that is just not as robust? It's hard to find good evidence.
By the nature of it, we're never going to have great randomized controlled trials that show-- Some of these things are just never going to be funded, but you've got to go work with what you got.
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
Some of these things, it's cost, but like, "Okay, you want to try a cold plunge? Try a cold plunge."
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Also, what's the danger to you, right? If there's a new, we'll say, complimentary treatment that someone wants to try, it's like, "Okay. Well, what's the personal financial cost to you? What are potentially dangerous side effects?" If those are both low and you want to try it, and there's some mechanistic study out there in a mouse that says it might work, cool. Let's try it. Let's partner together with that. As far as other options, acupuncture, for sure, and even acupressure. Again, there are case studies and there are small studies that show that even just acupressure points can be helpful.
I would never tell someone that this is the only treatment they need, but I often tell patients like, "You want to build a migraine toolkit or a sinus headache toolkit if we want to speak this language, and if migraine is off-putting." In that, might be a cold pack. One of those cold packs that you can break and you can just put over your face, or it might be a eucalyptus inhaler. It might be a little diagram. I have a-- It's not a little one, but I have like an 8x10 normal piece of paper that I print off for patients that shows them the acupressure points and how to do it. There's several in your face, obviously, up here. There's some in the back of the head.
Again, you can do that while you're sitting in your car at the red light. Those types of things, I think, are helpful. I do look at herbal medication options with patients. There are some herbs. Classically, there are some that were used that there's some concern about liver toxicity, so I'm cautious with those, but even trying to use things like nettle, which, again, has a benefit from an allergy congestion standpoint. Even chamomile is great, especially if they're having trouble falling asleep. Chamomile is great at night. There are definitely herbals, whether it's a tea and an infusion, or a tincture or something.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
It's funny, we talk about self-awareness and a lot of that, I think of emotional EQ mindset, but I think there's a lot of physical health self-awareness that you also have to take time. Like you said, you can run, run, run, run, run, go, go, go, and your body's trying to give you these little signs, until there's, "I just feel like crap," or until, "I'm so sick. I can't get out of bed." Yet, along the way, there were little yellow lights and signs. It's just why don't we pay attention to it enough? I think my gender bias is that, especially as women, we don't pay attention to it enough, yet we probably take the brunt of a lot of these physical things because of physiological changes and things like that.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
As women, we do know that migraine impacts young women more predominantly, or it's more prevalent in young women. Again, a lot of what I hear from patients when they see me is they told me it was just stress. They told me it's just because I'm a busy mom and I'm tired. I think young women do get written off. You're healthy, you're young, you're fine. Go take an ibuprofen and don't come back. That's frustrating, right?
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Thank you so much for taking the time. I always learn so much from you. I'm looking forward to maybe doing this again in another couple of years because I think you'll have even more to add. As we round it out, anything that you want to leave our listeners with?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I would recommend that before someone goes to an urgent care the next time for the same "sinus infection symptoms," that they just stop and think, "Could this be something else?" You can Google search the criteria and the recommended guidelines from EPOS. If you don't match with those sinus symptoms guidelines, consider that this could be an alternate diagnosis. Then think about the benefit of actually getting to the root of the problem and treating it versus not only being misdiagnosed, but also mistreated because we know that there's harms with repetitive, unnecessary antibiotic courses and steroids for that matter.
My ending thing is remember that final statistic as we leave, that 80% of sinus headaches meet migraine criteria, and have this conversation with your provider about this possibility, because there's a lot of other diagnostics and treatment options out there that can help you get answers. Then that's going to give you the long-lasting relief that you're really looking for.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Jessica, one last question for you. Can you tell us a little bit about the sinus headache course that you've put together for any of our listeners that may want to take the course and pull this skill set into their practice?
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes, thanks for bringing that up. I have a course called The Sinus Reset. Actually, it does talk about sinus headaches specifically, but it goes into not only migraine, it goes into the best way to treat an acute viral sinusitis infection without an antibiotic. It goes into what chronic sinusitis really means. It goes into allergic rhinosinusitis. It really covers all, like we said, the possible causes of sinus headaches and gives people examples of what tests you might want to look for, what the treatment options may be, are there supplements or things that could be helpful.
It also brings in all of the lifestyle pillars of looking at how sleep impacts it, how nutrition may impact it, and all the other pillars as well. That, you can find through www.integrativeenthealth.com, but also on the social media platforms this summer. I'm going to do a Summer Sinus Series. Again, it's short form, but I'm going to try to put a lot of that material as much little educational snippets as possible, so that if someone's following along, they could get a good idea of the breadth of what that course looks like, although the course goes into much more depth.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
She's entchat on Instagram.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Yes. Thank you.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Follow her. I always learn a lot from following you.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
I try to make it think-- I'm like, "Okay, all these questions that I answer in clinic every day, I wish I could answer these questions for anybody and everybody, and so I start just posting random stuff.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
You're doing a world of service, too. I think your reach is bigger than you know, and your patients are so lucky to have you.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Thank you. That's very kind.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Keep doing your thing. Come back and see us again soon.
[Dr. Jessica Lee]
Would love to. Thank you, guys.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Thank you, Jess.
[Dr. Gopi Shah]
Thank you so much for listening. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe, rate the podcast five stars, and share with a friend. If you have any questions or comments, direct message us @_backtableent on Instagram, LinkedIn, or Twitter. Backtable ENT is hosted by Gopi Shah-
[Dr. Ashley Agan]
-and Ashley Agan.
Podcast Contributors
Cite This Podcast
BackTable, LLC (Producer). (2025, June 24). Ep. 228 – Sinus Headaches vs. Migraines: Diagnosis & Treatment [Audio podcast]. Retrieved from https://www.backtable.com
Disclaimer: The Materials available on BackTable.com are for informational and educational purposes only and are not a substitute for the professional judgment of a healthcare professional in diagnosing and treating patients. The opinions expressed by participants of the BackTable Podcast belong solely to the participants, and do not necessarily reflect the views of BackTable.
















